Discussion:
[b-hebrew] Almah vs. Bethulah in Isaiah 7
t***@charter.net
2005-04-02 06:01:38 UTC
Permalink
It is the case that both the Hebrew word *almah* and the
Greek word *parthenos* have two meanings, either a woman of
any age who has never had sexual relations or simply a
young woman of marriageable age. It is not that different
from other languages, e.g. German (Jungfrau vs. Junge
Frau). The word by itself can have either meaning or both
at the same time. The only way to determine the intended
meaning is by the context.

For me, the key contextual element is it is not all unusual
for a young woman to give birth to a baby but it is
completely unheard of in the OT for a virgin to give birth.
Nowhere else in the OT does such an event occur. If the
author of Isaiah had meant that the mother of l)wnmm( was a
virgin, an unexpected, unprecedented, and miraculous event,
it would be reasonable for the author to call attention to
this fact. However, the author draws no particular
attention to this amazing fact. It is stated as a flat
fact and not mentioned again. This would suggest that the
author was not attempting to describe something unusual.

The second contextual element is how the rest of the text
handles the same issue. Isaiah uses the word *bethulah*
(hlwtb) in other settings where the author clearly means
virgin (Isa 23:12, Isa 37.22, Isa 62.5). Both of these
contextual elements would suggest that the author of Isaiah
had meant in 7:18 a routine birth by a young women rather
than miraculous birth by a virgin.
Evgeny Ivanov
2005-04-02 14:15:08 UTC
Permalink
It's interesting that the argument of early christians
was exactly the opposite - the Is.7.14 is a message of
prophesy.
Post by t***@charter.net
However, the author draws no particular
attention to this amazing fact
"For this reason the sovereign master himself will
give you a confirming sign". If the message is just a
routine birth by a young women, then what is this
phophesy about, what is the sign?

Evgeny
Post by t***@charter.net
It is the case that both the Hebrew word *almah* and
the
Greek word *parthenos* have two meanings, either a
woman of
any age who has never had sexual relations or simply
a
young woman of marriageable age. It is not that
different
from other languages, e.g. German (Jungfrau vs.
Junge
Frau). The word by itself can have either meaning
or both
at the same time. The only way to determine the
intended
meaning is by the context.
For me, the key contextual element is it is not all
unusual
for a young woman to give birth to a baby but it is
completely unheard of in the OT for a virgin to give
birth.
Nowhere else in the OT does such an event occur. If
the
author of Isaiah had meant that the mother of
l)wnmm( was a
virgin, an unexpected, unprecedented, and miraculous
event,
it would be reasonable for the author to call
attention to
this fact. However, the author draws no particular
attention to this amazing fact. It is stated as a
flat
fact and not mentioned again. This would suggest
that the
author was not attempting to describe something
unusual.
The second contextual element is how the rest of the
text
handles the same issue. Isaiah uses the word
*bethulah*
(hlwtb) in other settings where the author clearly
means
virgin (Isa 23:12, Isa 37.22, Isa 62.5). Both of
these
contextual elements would suggest that the author of
Isaiah
had meant in 7:18 a routine birth by a young women
rather
than miraculous birth by a virgin.
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Peter Kirk
2005-04-02 14:51:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evgeny Ivanov
It's interesting that the argument of early christians
was exactly the opposite - the Is.7.14 is a message of
prophesy.
It is certainly a prophecy, but of events to occur within the next five
years or so.

As for how Matthew used this verse in the New Testament, and the
subsequent Christian use of this verse: In Matthew chapters 1-2 Matthew
uses several Hebrew Bible passages e.g. Hosea 11:1, Jeremiah 31:15 in
ways which sometimes cannot possibly be the original prophet's intention
when writing. And I am sure that Matthew did not intend to indicate the
original meaning of the prophecy; for example, surely he understood that
in 11:1 Hosea was referring to the nation of Israel rather than to the
Messiah. Rather, when Matthew writes e.g. "All this took place to fulfil
what the Lord has said through the prophet", his concept of "fulfil" was
much richer than that a specific prediction had come true, but rather
that some deeper underlying significance of the prophecy had been
fulfilled in the coming (as he saw it) of the Messiah.

In other words, in the Jewish terminology which John Leys used,
Matthew's use of these passages is more drash than pshat.
Post by Evgeny Ivanov
Post by t***@charter.net
However, the author draws no particular
attention to this amazing fact
"For this reason the sovereign master himself will
give you a confirming sign". If the message is just a
routine birth by a young women, then what is this
phophesy about, what is the sign?
The sign, surely, is that a particular young women will have a son - not
in itself miraculous, but perhaps noteworthy. And the prophecy is not
only this but that before the child grows up the land of two kings will
be laid waste.
--
Peter Kirk
***@qaya.org (personal)
***@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/
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George F Somsel
2005-04-02 15:09:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evgeny Ivanov
It's interesting that the argument of early christians
was exactly the opposite - the Is.7.14 is a message of
prophesy.
Post by t***@charter.net
However, the author draws no particular
attention to this amazing fact
"For this reason the sovereign master himself will
give you a confirming sign". If the message is just a
routine birth by a young women, then what is this
phophesy about, what is the sign?
Evgeny
_________________

Let me turn the tables on you a bit. This birth is said to be a sign to
Ahaz. A sign would need to be something which the one to whom it is
given would witness. If it is regarding the birth of Jesus Christ, an
event several hundred years later, how then is it a sign to Ahaz since he
will never witness it? Also, if it is regarding a nearer event as well
as a more remote event (i.e. that there was some kind of fulfilment in
the time it was originally given, and if it refers to a virgin birth, are
there then two virgin births in scripture?

george
gfsomsel
___________
M***@aol.com
2005-04-02 15:17:11 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 02/04/2005 16:05:34 GMT Daylight Time, ***@juno.com
writes:

Let me turn the tables on you a bit. This birth is said to be a sign to
Ahaz. A sign would need to be something which the one to whom it is
given would witness. If it is regarding the birth of Jesus Christ, an
event several hundred years later, how then is it a sign to Ahaz since he
will never witness it? Also, if it is regarding a nearer event as well
as a more remote event (i.e. that there was some kind of fulfilment in
the time it was originally given, and if it refers to a virgin birth, are
there then two virgin births in scripture?

george
gfsomsel


It seems to me Mark Eddy gave a very good response to your point almost a
year ago when this topic came up on this list. Here it is again :

=====

Subj:Re: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 7:13 ha-alma and xarah
Date:12/05/2004 18:23:34 GMT Daylight Time
From:***@adams.net
To:b-***@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent from the Internet (Details)


Isaiah does not say that the sign is "for Ahas." Ahaz refused to ask for a
sign.(v. 12). So instead of giving a sign of Ahaz's choosing, the Lord will
give a sign to the "house of David" (v. 13). In verse 11
Isaiah addressed Ahaz with the singular Sha(aL LKa ("Listen, you!") but in
verse 13 Isaiah switches to referring to the "house of David" in the plural
(MiKKeM, and the verb TaL(U, also LaKem in verse 14). Ahaz
is just the most recent part of the house of David, which has tried God's
patience for a long time. The sign is for the whole house of David, not
primarily for the king in that house at that particular time.

Mark Eddy
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Celal Berker
_www.eefc.co.uk_ (http://www.eefc.co.uk/)
_www.fiec.org.uk_ (http://www.fiec.org.uk/)
_www.hristiyan.net_ (http://www.hristiyan.net)
Peter Kirk
2005-04-02 15:33:08 UTC
Permalink
...
... The sign is for the whole house of David, not
primarily for the king in that house at that particular time.
Mark Eddy
Possibly, but there is then a logical problem in taking this as the
virgin birth of the Messiah. For the Messiah is supposed to be the
representative in his own time of the House of David - and this is
certainly how the NT authors understood him. So is the virgin birth of a
child supposed to be a sign to that child? Well, I suppose it could be a
sign to that child that he should understand himself to be the Messiah
and take on that role. But that doesn't seem to fit either Isaiah's or
Matthew's use of the passage.
--
Peter Kirk
***@qaya.org (personal)
***@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/
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George F Somsel
2005-04-02 15:34:36 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:17:11 EST ***@aol.com writes:
In a message dated 02/04/2005 16:05:34 GMT Daylight Time,
***@juno.com writes:
Let me turn the tables on you a bit. This birth is said to be a sign to
Ahaz. A sign would need to be something which the one to whom it is
given would witness. If it is regarding the birth of Jesus Christ, an
event several hundred years later, how then is it a sign to Ahaz since he
will never witness it? Also, if it is regarding a nearer event as well
as a more remote event (i.e. that there was some kind of fulfilment in
the time it was originally given, and if it refers to a virgin birth, are
there then two virgin births in scripture?

george
gfsomsel


It seems to me Mark Eddy gave a very good response to your point almost a
year ago when this topic came up on this list. Here it is again :

=====

Subj:Re: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 7:13 ha-alma and xarah
Date:12/05/2004 18:23:34 GMT Daylight Time
From:***@adams.net
To:b-***@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent from the Internet (Details)


Isaiah does not say that the sign is "for Ahas." Ahaz refused to ask for
a sign.(v. 12). So instead of giving a sign of Ahaz's choosing, the Lord
will give a sign to the "house of David" (v. 13). In verse 11
Isaiah addressed Ahaz with the singular Sha(aL LKa ("Listen, you!") but
in verse 13 Isaiah switches to referring to the "house of David" in the
plural (MiKKeM, and the verb TaL(U, also LaKem in verse 14). Ahaz
is just the most recent part of the house of David, which has tried God's
patience for a long time. The sign is for the whole house of David, not
primarily for the king in that house at that particular time.

Mark Eddy
_______________________________________________
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===================

Celal Berker
www.eefc.co.uk
www.fiec.org.uk
www.hristiyan.net

_______________

That strikes me as pure sophism. The sign is clearly for Ahaz.

1. Ahaz is instructed to ask for a sign
2. He refuses (most piously, of course)
3. The prophet then says that the LORD would therefore name the sign

Then, examine the nature of the sign.
1. A young woman is pregnant and is to give birth
2. She will give a particular name to her child (Immanuel)
3. BEFORE THE CHILD IS WEANED the Assyrians will no longer be a power.

The sequence in which prophesy is given as well as the prophesy itself
demand a nearly immediate fulfilment.

george
gfsomsel
___________
Dave Washburn
2005-04-02 16:19:24 UTC
Permalink
It's still a non-issue, as others have pointed out, since in that culture "a
young woman of marriageable age" was expected to be a virgin. Hence, to say
"it is not all unusual [sic?] for a young woman to give birth to a baby" is
incorrect, unless she married first. If this statement is based on the fact
that it's not all that unusual today, then it's anachronistic. Either way,
the (LMH in this clause was expected to be unmarried and therefore a virgin.
If there's an implied marriage in there somewhere, the text knows nothing
about it and neither do we.
Post by t***@charter.net
It is the case that both the Hebrew word *almah* and the
Greek word *parthenos* have two meanings, either a woman of
any age who has never had sexual relations or simply a
young woman of marriageable age. It is not that different
from other languages, e.g. German (Jungfrau vs. Junge
Frau). The word by itself can have either meaning or both
at the same time. The only way to determine the intended
meaning is by the context.
For me, the key contextual element is it is not all unusual
for a young woman to give birth to a baby but it is
completely unheard of in the OT for a virgin to give birth.
Nowhere else in the OT does such an event occur. If the
author of Isaiah had meant that the mother of l)wnmm( was a
virgin, an unexpected, unprecedented, and miraculous event,
it would be reasonable for the author to call attention to
this fact. However, the author draws no particular
attention to this amazing fact. It is stated as a flat
fact and not mentioned again. This would suggest that the
author was not attempting to describe something unusual.
The second contextual element is how the rest of the text
handles the same issue. Isaiah uses the word *bethulah*
(hlwtb) in other settings where the author clearly means
virgin (Isa 23:12, Isa 37.22, Isa 62.5). Both of these
contextual elements would suggest that the author of Isaiah
had meant in 7:18 a routine birth by a young women rather
than miraculous birth by a virgin.
_______________________________________________
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http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
--
Dave Washburn
http://www.nyx.net/~dwashbur
"No good. Hit on head." -Gronk
M***@aol.com
2005-04-02 16:44:27 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 02/04/2005 16:29:52 GMT Daylight Time, ***@juno.com
writes:

Then, examine the nature of the sign.
1. A young woman is pregnant and is to give birth
2. She will give a particular name to her child (Immanuel)
3. BEFORE THE CHILD IS WEANED the Assyrians will no longer be a power.

The sequence in which prophesy is given as well as the prophesy itself
demand a nearly immediate fulfilment.

george
gfsomsel




George,

Who is your candidate for "Immanuel" ?
Rabbinical Jewish interpretation has proposed Isaiah's son or Hezekiah.
Neither interpretation works any better or is superior to the Jesus
interpretation.

For the Jews for Jesus take on the passage see
_http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/9_1/promisedchild_
(http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/9_1/promisedchild)


Celal Berker
_www.eefc.co.uk_ (http://www.eefc.co.uk/)
_www.fiec.org.uk_ (http://www.fiec.org.uk/)
_www.hristiyan.net_ (http://www.hristiyan.net/)
M***@aol.com
2005-04-02 16:57:21 UTC
Permalink
... The sign is for the whole house of David, not
primarily for the king in that house at that particular time.
Mark Eddy
Possibly, but there is then a logical problem in taking this as the
virgin birth of the Messiah. For the Messiah is supposed to be the
representative in his own time of the House of David - and this is
certainly how the NT authors understood him.


Hello Peter,

I don't agree with you that NT authors understood Jesus in as circumscribed
a manner as you suggest -- the Messiah is the representative of the House of
David --and also much more according to NT authors. I could refer you (at
least) to Hebrews, and 1 & 2 Peter in that regard.

There should be another post coming to list which is Bishop NT Wright's take
on the Mattean appropriation of the Isaianic passage. He takes the canonical
and theological approach to this passage which i think is absolutely
necessary.

Celal Berker
_www.eefc.co.uk_ (http://www.eefc.co.uk/)
_www.fiec.org.uk_ (http://www.fiec.org.uk/)
_www.hristiyan.net_ (http://www.hristiyan.net)
Peter Kirk
2005-04-02 17:24:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@aol.com
...
Hello Peter,
I don't agree with you that NT authors understood Jesus in as
circumscribed a manner as you suggest -- the Messiah is the
representative of the House of David --and also much more according to
NT authors. I could refer you (at least) to Hebrews, and 1 & 2 Peter
in that regard.
I quite agree (as an evangelical Christian) that to the NT authors Jesus
was far more than the representative of the House of David. My point was
that he is not less than this - that house had no other representative
at that time, in their view. But this is getting beyond the scope for
this list.
Post by M***@aol.com
There should be another post coming to list which is Bishop NT
Wright's take on the Mattean appropriation of the Isaianic passage. He
takes the canonical and theological approach to this passage which i
think is absolutely necessary.
I have a lot of respect for Tom Wright and would be interested in what
he has to say about this.
--
Peter Kirk
***@qaya.org (personal)
***@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/
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George F Somsel
2005-04-02 17:25:52 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Apr 2005 11:44:27 EST ***@aol.com writes:
In a message dated 02/04/2005 16:29:52 GMT Daylight Time,
***@juno.com writes:
Then, examine the nature of the sign.
1. A young woman is pregnant and is to give birth
2. She will give a particular name to her child (Immanuel)
3. BEFORE THE CHILD IS WEANED the Assyrians will no longer be a power.

The sequence in which prophesy is given as well as the prophesy itself
demand a nearly immediate fulfilment.

george
gfsomsel

George,

Who is your candidate for "Immanuel" ?
Rabbinical Jewish interpretation has proposed Isaiah's son or Hezekiah.
Neither interpretation works any better or is superior to the Jesus
interpretation.

For the Jews for Jesus take on the passage see
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/9_1/promisedchild


Celal Berker
www.eefc.co.uk
www.fiec.org.uk
www.hristiyan.net


_________________

I have no candidate since I refuse to speculate on the matter. All that
is required is that there be such a child. A determination of precisely
who it may have been is, in any case, beside the point. The point is not
the child but that of which the child will be a sign.

george
gfsomsel
___________
k***@comcast.net
2005-04-02 18:39:24 UTC
Permalink
For the sake of not getting too far away from Hebrew. (which I am guilty of as well). It has been argued that Matthew's definition of fufillment does not always have to be in the sense of prophesy/fufillment but rather analogy. (i.e Matt 2:18)

Here in Matt 2:18, he makes an analogy, just like there was weeping in the days of Jeremiah, so to there is weeping during this time as well.

So, the sign was given to Ahaz, it was fufilled during his time. Matthew uses this prophesy as an analogy of what happened in Jesus time. Meaning just like this particular event took place during Ahaz time period as a sign, Jesus birth is happening as well. In a nut shell.
--
Kelton Graham
***@comcast.net

-------------- Original message --------------
Post by M***@aol.com
In a message dated 02/04/2005 16:05:34 GMT Daylight Time,
Let me turn the tables on you a bit. This birth is said to be a sign to
Ahaz. A sign would need to be something which the one to whom it is
given would witness. If it is regarding the birth of Jesus Christ, an
event several hundred years later, how then is it a sign to Ahaz since he
will never witness it? Also, if it is regarding a nearer event as well
as a more remote event (i.e. that there was some kind of fulfilment in
the time it was originally given, and if it refers to a virgin birth, are
there then two virgin births in scripture?
george
gfsomsel
It seems to me Mark Eddy gave a very good response to your point almost a
=====
Subj:Re: [b-hebrew] Isaiah 7:13 ha-alma and xarah
Date:12/05/2004 18:23:34 GMT Daylight Time
Sent from the Internet (Details)
Isaiah does not say that the sign is "for Ahas." Ahaz refused to ask for
a sign.(v. 12). So instead of giving a sign of Ahaz's choosing, the Lord
will give a sign to the "house of David" (v. 13). In verse 11
Isaiah addressed Ahaz with the singular Sha(aL LKa ("Listen, you!") but
in verse 13 Isaiah switches to referring to the "house of David" in the
plural (MiKKeM, and the verb TaL(U, also LaKem in verse 14). Ahaz
is just the most recent part of the house of David, which has tried God's
patience for a long time. The sign is for the whole house of David, not
primarily for the king in that house at that particular time.
Mark Eddy
_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
===================
Celal Berker
www.eefc.co.uk
www.fiec.org.uk
www.hristiyan.net
_______________
That strikes me as pure sophism. The sign is clearly for Ahaz.
1. Ahaz is instructed to ask for a sign
2. He refuses (most piously, of course)
3. The prophet then says that the LORD would therefore name the sign
Then, examine the nature of the sign.
1. A young woman is pregnant and is to give birth
2. She will give a particular name to her child (Immanuel)
3. BEFORE THE CHILD IS WEANED the Assyrians will no longer be a power.
The sequence in which prophesy is given as well as the prophesy itself
demand a nearly immediate fulfilment.
george
gfsomsel
___________
_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
Ben Crick
2005-04-02 17:49:07 UTC
Permalink
For me, the key contextual element is it is not all unusual for a
young woman to give birth to a baby but it is completely unheard of in
the OT for a virgin to give birth. Nowhere else in the OT does such
an event occur.
The Sign offered to Ahaz was a *cosmic sign*, "either in the depth, or in
the height above" (verse 11). That would make a Virgin birth more likely
than any unmarried mother giving birth.

In Isaiah 8:3, the "prophetess" (Mrs Isaiah?) gives birth to a son with a
prophetic name MaHeR $aLaL Xa$ BaZ; a brother for $e:'aR Ya$uWB 7:3. This
child is certainly a contemporary Sign (present persuader) to Ahaz.

The son of the `aL:MaH is to be named `iMMaNuW'eL. He is the `aL:MaH's son
7:14; he is the Owner of the Land 8:8; he is the Defender of the Land 8:8;
he is the Protector of the Land 8:10; and he is the Wonder Child of 9:6-7.

The Wonder Child's names or titles in 9:6b PeLe' YoW:`eC 'eL GiBBoWR
a:BiY`aD &aR-$aLoWM sit very well with his prophetic name of `iMMaNuW'eL.

Whereas MaherShalalhashBaz is a "present persuader" sign to Ahaz, Immanuel
is a Future Confirmer to generations yet to come.

The view from here...

Ben
--
Revd Ben Crick, BA CF ZFC Lu
<***@NOSPAM.argonet.co.uk>
232 Canterbury Road, Birchington, Kent, CT7 9TD (UK)
*Acorn RPC700, RO4.03+Kinetic Card, 126MB, 4.3GB HD, x32CDROM
*Castle Iyonix X100, RO5.06, 600MHz XScale processor, 512MB DDR RAM,
114GB HD, CD-RW, etc. *Ethernet networking.
M***@aol.com
2005-04-02 21:21:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Kirk
[Celal] There should be another post coming to list which is Bishop NT
Wright's take on the Mattean appropriation of the Isaianic passage. He
takes the canonical and theological approach to this passage which i
think is absolutely necessary.
[Peter] I have a lot of respect for Tom Wright and would be interested in what
Post by Peter Kirk
he has to say about this.
Hello Peter,

Here it is :
...........

The nature of Matthew's reliance on Isaiah 7:14 has been a matter of
contention almost from the moment it was written. Our earliest example
of an anti-Jewish apology (Justin Martyr, in the mid second century) is
already aware that the issue is a matter of longstanding controversy.
Modern critical scholarship has generally been dismissive of Matthew's
connection of the prophecy with a virginal conception, and seen the
appropriation of the text as an act of unwarranted exegetical
opportunism. In the face of such objections, modern evangelicals (unlike
their early
predacessors) have been increasingly inclined to retreat to a more
reticent reading of the text, one that deemphasizes the nature of
"virginity" as a critical motif, and relies more on the less
controversial element of the sacred name Immanuel. Although there is
surely some merit in this emphasis (the name is certainly important to
Matthew's purposes as well), there is still a sense of resignation and
defeat in such an attitude. Either we need to entrench into a purely
mechanistic view of supernatural insight-- i.e., that Isaiah didn't know
what he was talking about at the time, and Matthew is justified in
reading it "out of context" on the basis of divine wisdom-- or else we
are left with the suspicion that the whole notion of a virginal
conception might have been raised on the unstable foundation of a house
of cards. I am going to propose that we can understand this text in a
more wholistic way that largely vindicates Matthew's usage, without it
coming at the cost of compromising the integrity of Isaiah's context.
Rather than carelessly plucking a verse out of disposable narrative,
Matthew is quite intentionally invoking a broad palatte of Isaianic
themes in a way that (by the standard of his era, at least) is
thoughtful and responsible.

Before addressing this passage, however, I want to step back and think a
little more generally about the nature of prophetic fulfillment in the
Old Testament. I propose that there is a discernable pattern that
controls the way that oracular prophecy (i.e., messages about "the
future" the promise a favorable resolution given during tumultuous
period of personal or national history) is partly contingent upon
validation by the faith of its hearers. In Isaiah 7:9, we see
articulated a principle that arises again and again in the history of
Israel: "If you do not believe, then you will not endure." This
conditionality stands somewhat in tension with the irrevocability of
God's promises. On the one hand, God makes a guarantee to Abraham that
seems to establish a covenant in perpetuity. On the other hand, we have
numerous instances of God demanding faith from the descendants of
Abraham, as an ongoing criterion for divine favor. Many instances of
biographical drama in the Hebrew scriptures emerge from this tension.

As an archetypical example, consider the behavior of Moses at Meribah
(Num 20:8-13). Moses is commanded to repeat the miracle he performed 40
years earlier, bringing forth a spring of water from a rock, but this
time God requests that he accomplish this by speaking to it. Instead,
Moses strikes the rock twice with his staff, an intensification of the
original command in Exodus 17 that seems to embody the faithlessness and
grumbling of Israel as a whole. Moses and Aaron as chastised for their
lack of belief, and on this basis are denied the right to lead Israel
into Canaan-- this duty passes to the second generation leaders, Joshua
and Caleb. (Moses is allowed to view the covenant land, but not
permitted to enter.)

The following sequence of promise and fulfillment can be generalized
from this example: First, a revelation comes from God that describes or
at least sketches the expected outcome of trust and faithful obedience.
Second, the recipients respond by subtly twisting the obligation placed
upon them, attempting to accomplish the promised outcome in a way that
deviates from divine standards. Third, God identifies the act of
faithlessness, and appends an amendation to the original prophecy that
amounts to a punishment, a "harder path" than the one that would have
been obtained with greater faith. Fourth, the original prophecy is
accomplished according to an altered mechanism or a delayed time frame,
reasserting the faithfulness of God. I'll call this overall pattern a
"transformed/deferred fulfillment". The basic idea is that God makes a
promise, a human attempt is made to complete the promise in a way that
God considers displeasing, and then the full completion is reassigned to
a different person or a later time period that better expresses the fact
that the entire situation is under God's control-- that divine promises
are sufficiently powerful that they cannot be thwarted even by human
faithlessness. In effect, God uses human weakness to set up a divine
reversal, in which strength is brought out of weakness: "not by might,
not by power, but by the Spirit of God."

There are several other clean examples of the same basic cycle. Abraham,
promised that he will become the father of a great nation, attempts to
have a son by taking one of his servants as a concubine; this son (and
his
mother) fall into disfavor and are driven out into the desert, and the
promise passes to another son who comes according to a more improbable
birth. Jacob's ascendence over his brother Esau is anticipated by the
message given to Rebekah during her pregnancy; after Jacob is born,
however, he conspires with his mother to steal his brother's birthright,
and is driven into exile to work as a servant for his uncle (and becomes
the victim of deception himself), before his fortunes are restored by a
new set of blessings directly from God. David is promised the throne of
Israel; however, he resorts to hiding under the protection of the
Philistines (and working as a guerrilla mercenary), earning him a
reputation for violence that appears to have been connected to God's
decision to reassign the privilege of constructing the temple to Solomon
(who requests of God to be renowned for wisdom rather than power). In
each case, the flaw consists of trying to bring about the promised
outcome in a way that places faith some place other than in the
sovereignty of God. The punishment is then a personal one, rebuking the
faithlessness of the individual, but preserving God's promise in a
transformed way that not only continues to guarantee the fulfillment of
God's greater purpose, but actually reinforces the recognition of a
divine power at work.

Now I'm going to argue that this pattern is present in Isaiah 7-9, and
that it helps us to understand the reason why Matthew finds this entire
prophetic cycle (and not merely one verse extracted from it) to be of
messianic significance. First, let's review the chronology. The kings of
Aram and Israel (who have formed an alliance to counterbalance the
growing influence of Assyria) are threatening Judah. God reveals to
Isaiah that the outcome of the situation is not really in doubt; both of
these nations are on the edge of destruction, and their fury is about to
burn out. King Ahaz is offered a supernatural sign, something that will
reinforce his faith in the authority of God; Ahaz refuses the offer, and
instead makes diplomatic overtures to the King of Assyria to rescue him,
including a bribe of various treasures plundered from the temple. During
the reign of Ahaz' son Hezekiah, the wrath of Assyria turns on Judah,
and the countryside is ravaged by the armies of Sennacharib until God
repels them. Hezekiah is given the same offer of a sign (this time in
response to anxiety about his physical health), and this time God is
merciful enough to give him a multiple choice quiz! Hezekiah asks for
the "harder" sign (making a shadow go backwards), and God seems pleased
enough by this that Hezekiah is provided with a long and prosperous
reign.

Interweaving the historical events of 2 Kings with the prophetic
messages of Isaiah 7-9 is an uncertain exercise of chronology, but it
appears likely that the transition from chapter 7 (the message to Ahaz)
to chapter 8 (the symbolic sign of Isaiah's son) is triggered by Ahaz'
decision to seek assistance from Assyria. The message of chapter 7 is
given to Ahaz. In chapter 8, Ahaz is out of the picture, and Isaiah is
using Uriah and Zechariah as "witnesses" to the prophecy of this
chapter, suggesting he had lost the king's ear. The prophecy of chapter
8 is mostly identitical to that of chapter 7, but with the expanded
description of a judgment that falls on "both houses of Isael" (8:14).
The entire message seems to be directed toward a community (8:16) that
will hold these prophecies as a written record in perpetuity. What seems
to have happened here is an example of "striking the rock". Ahaz has
received a message he find favorable, and has now gone about bringing it
into reality in a way that demonstrates "impatience" and a disrespect
for the holy things of God. This is basically the same flaw as Moses,
despite Ahaz' rather worse reputation. So God alters the terms of the
promise in a way that brings grief to the kingdom of Ahaz, while still
maintaining the overall guarantee of Israel's ultimate deliverance. The
child born to Isaiah is not given the comforting name of "Immanuel", but
only a name that suggests destruction and desolation. The word given to
Ahaz is still true, but instead of being the salvation of Judah, it is a
harbinger of greater violence and warfare that will reduce Jerusalem to
an island in a raging river. In effect, the prophecy has been split, and
the "restorational" half of it has been deferred. Isaiah's words will
need to be bound up and preserved through an era of "gloom", when Israel
will be inclined to curse God and curse their own king (8:21).

At this point, things turn interesting. Isaiah again prophesies the
birth of a son, this time one who will permanently restore the fortunes
of Israel. His names are clearly those of a divinely established ruler;
he is the true Immanuel, a "Joshua" to supercede the "Moses" of Israel's
current regime. Most remarkably, he seems to be emerging from the
kingdom of Israel, not Judah! In effect, God is overturning
expectations. Rather than a ruler from the household of Ahaz in
Jerusalem, the true king will be from the doomed lands of the northern
tribes. (He cannot, I would argue, be Hezekiah-- as most early
anti-Christian polemics by Jewish commentators
argued-- since Hezekiah was already born at the time of this prophecy,
and the final compiler of Isaiah clearly understood that Hezekiah's
kingdom would itself fall to Babylon.) Instead of simply vindicating
Judah at the expense of Israel, God is involved in a project that will
ultimately reconcile the divided kingdom (see also 11:13). The motif of
"birth" is used deliberately in Isaiah as a way of expressing the
difficulty of this project. In Isaiah 37:3, Hezekiah compares his reform
program, threatened by the incursions of Assyria, to the trials of a
childbirth: "children have come to birth, and there is no strength to
deliver." The songs announcing the return of Israel from the diaspora
(24-25) reinforce the same imagery. Israel is wracked by labor pains
(26:17), but ultimately can give birth only to wind (26:18). As a
result, Israel is bound under exile
(26:20) until YHWH himself steps forth as her champion (26:21-27:1). The
primary focus of Isaiah is on a picture of restoration that is large
enough to encompass not only Jerusalem and the house of Ahaz, but all of
the scattered tribes. And the failure of Judah to accomplish this alone
is part of God's greater design.

Based on a broader appreciation of the birth motif in Israel's history,
Matthew's allusion begins to make more sense. The intention of Isaiah
was always broader than the "sign" of a specific child born to impress
Ahaz. Instead, this was, from the very beginning, an appeal to the
"high" and "deep" intentions of God to bring hope unexpectedly out of a
state of universal despair. In this respect, Matthew is not constrained
to fight over the definitions of a single word in a single verse; he can
appeal to an entire tradition of "childbirth as national redemption"
literarature. Isaiah 7:14 may use an ambiguous word for "maiden", but
there are plenty of other texts available for clarification of the
intent. Jerusalem is frequently presented as a "virgin (bethulah)
daughter", as an expression of the (idealized) pure state to which God
intends her to aspire. Isaiah 37:22, the prophecy of Isaiah to Hezekiah,
depicts Jerusalem as a virgin who mocks the power of Assyria with
promises that God's judgment is imminent. (The parallels to the Lucan
Magnificat are hard to overlook!) Jeremiah 31 (where Matthew appeals for
his passage about "Rachel weaping for her children") twice identifies
Jerusalem as a virgin; this text, like Isaiah's, is notable in that it
mixes imagery from both kingdoms, Ephraim/Samaria and Judah/Zion.

It seems plausible that in addition to the explicit citation of Isaiah
7:14, Matthew may be intending a larger set of Isaianic allusions.
First, the visitation of the Magi (a Matthean exclusive!) speaks about
treasures being brought by "rulers" from the East, and given to the
infant Jesus as tribute in acknowledgment of his coming reign. This
would have been recognized by early Christians as a deliberate inversion
of the plunder taken by Assyria in Isaiah 8. For example, Tertullian
could write with a direct citation of Isaiah 8, at the end of the second
century, that "the Magi themselves, on recognizing him, honored him with
gifts and adored him on bended knee as Lord and King.... Accordingly,
they became 'the spoils of Samaria', that is, of [the figurative kingdom
of] idolatry-- by believing, namely, on Christ." This event in Matthew
effectively "unworks" the desecration of the temple of YHWH under Ahaz,
where the temple implements were given over for use by pagan nations.
Second, there is a definite possibility that Herod is being invoked as a
"type" of Ahaz. Like Ahaz, his notorious sin consisted of putting some
of his own sons to death. Herod functions in Matthew's text as a
pretender to Israel's throne, one who places his confidence in wealth,
power, and foreign alliances. Third, Matthew takes special note of the
fact that Jesus is counted as a member of the northern kingdom of
Israel: "called a Nazarene." Regardless of which OT passage Matthew
actually thinks he's citing, there is little doubt that the general
intent is quite similar to that of Isaiah 9:1. The Messiah, unexpectely,
is regarded as a native of "Galillee of the Gentiles", about as far from
the seat of the Davidic throne as one could imagine. This is consistent
with a number of (often
sly) affirmations of God's love for the maginalized people of the
northern tribes (including even the Samaritans) that are scattered
throughout the New Testament. Even the reference to Jesus being called
"out of Egypt" has a certain precedent in the text of Isaiah, with 11:16
noting that the restoration of the exilic diaspora will be "just as it
was for Israel, in the day they came up out of the land of Egypt."

All of this, I think is part of Matthew's studied recognition of the
central themes of Isaiah's prophetic arc. God's project is expansive. It
involves a full reconciliation. It emerges out of weakness, and makes a
mockery of the proud. It defies human expectations. As the prophecy of
Isaiah to Hezekiah suggests, it is the sort of redemption that will
allow a virgin to laugh at a haughty king behind his back. And that, I
think, is precisely the story that Matthew understands that he is in the
process of reporting.(NT Wright)
============

Celal Berker
Peter Kirk
2005-04-02 21:42:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by M***@aol.com
Post by Peter Kirk
...
[Peter] I have a lot of respect for Tom Wright and would be interested in what
Post by Peter Kirk
he has to say about this.
Hello Peter,
Here it is : ...
Teşekkür ederim (thank you), Celal. I can accept almost everything
Wright writes here. I agree with his aim that we should not "[see] the
appropriation of the text as an act of unwarranted exegetical
opportunism", and that "we can understand this text in a more wholistic
way that largely vindicates Matthew's usage, without it coming at the
cost of compromising the integrity of Isaiah's context". But I do wonder
if Matthew's understanding of Isaiah was really as deep as Wright seems
to think it was.
--
Peter Kirk
***@qaya.org (personal)
***@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/
--
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M***@aol.com
2005-04-03 03:47:05 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 02/04/2005 22:42:47 GMT Standard Time, ***@qaya.org
writes:

But I do wonder
if Matthew's understanding of Isaiah was really as deep as Wright seems
to think it was.
--
Peter Kirk



===
Hello Peter,

I would prefer to continue this discussion off line since we have moved away
from the primary purpose of the list but if Matthew was with Jesus for over
3 years and received the Holy Spirit ( Ruach Ha Kodesh) after the Ascension
then i don't see the level of understanding attributed by Wright to Matthew as
in any way particularly problematic.

Celal Berker
M***@aol.com
2005-04-03 03:51:58 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 02/04/2005 18:22:33 GMT Standard Time, ***@juno.com
writes:

I have no candidate since I refuse to speculate on the matter. All that
is required is that there be such a child. A determination of precisely
who it may have been is, in any case, beside the point. The point is not
the child but that of which the child will be a sign.

george
gfsomsel
======

Hello George,

Perhaps someone could tell us if there is a sense in which a *particular*
'almah' is indicated by the Hebrew text of Isaiah 7. In any case it has not
stopped Jewish interpreters from speculating.

Celal Berker
_www.eefc.co.u_ (http://www.eefc.co.u/)
_www.fiec.org.uk_ (http://www.fiec.org.uk/)
_www.hristiyan.net_ (http://www.hristiyan.net)
George F Somsel
2005-04-03 05:06:09 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:51:58 EST ***@aol.com writes:
In a message dated 02/04/2005 18:22:33 GMT Standard Time,
***@juno.com writes:
I have no candidate since I refuse to speculate on the matter. All that
is required is that there be such a child. A determination of precisely
who it may have been is, in any case, beside the point. The point is not
the child but that of which the child will be a sign.

george
gfsomsel
======
Hello George,

Perhaps someone could tell us if there is a sense in which a *particular*
'almah' is indicated by the Hebrew text of Isaiah 7. In any case it has
not stopped Jewish interpreters from speculating.

Celal Berker
www.eefc.co.u
www.fiec.org.uk
www.hristiyan.net

______________

I think you are correct to note that it is a *particular* )aL:MfH who is
in view here. It would seem that the article would indicate this.

The basic opposition of the categories definite: indefinite is similar:
in Hebrew, as in English, the definite noun directs attention to the
referent�s identity, while the indefinite noun focuses on the class to
which the referent belongs, its quality and character. In # 8 the use of
an indefinite (or anarthrous) noun emphasizes the class to which the
referent belongs, while in # 9 the definite (or arthrous) noun phrase
highlights the particularity of the referent.??

Waltke, B. K., & O'Connor, M. P. (1990). _An introduction to biblical
Hebrew syntax_. Includes indexes. (Page 236). Winona Lake, Ind.:
Eisenbrauns.

Therefore, it must have been a particular individual to whom the prophet
pointed by his words, but this is not so evident to us. It could have
been the prophet's wife, some member of the royal family, or (who knows ?
) even the high priest's wife. We lack too much information regarding to
whom such a term might have referred since we have only a limited account
of the society at that time. Therefore any statement regarding her
identity would be sheer supposition. Not only so, but it is entirely
beyond what is necessary to understand the force of the passage, viz.
Some specific woman is pregnant, will bear a son whom she will name
Immanuel, and before this child is weaned Syria will be a thing of the
past.

george
gfsomsel
___________
Karl Randolph
2005-04-03 18:07:37 UTC
Permalink
When reading the passages below, none (at least as I understand it) specifically refer to a virgin, in particular Isa. 62:5. This last verse indicates a woman who is married, though referring to her wedding day. It is because of uses like this that I understand BTWLH to refer to a young woman of marriageable age, not necessarily a virgin.

Karl W. Randolph.

----- Original Message -----
From: ***@charter.net
...
Post by t***@charter.net
The second contextual element is how the rest of the text
handles the same issue. Isaiah uses the word *bethulah*
(hlwtb) in other settings where the author clearly means
virgin (Isa 23:12, Isa 37.22, Isa 62.5). Both of these
contextual elements would suggest that the author of Isaiah
had meant in 7:18 a routine birth by a young women rather
than miraculous birth by a virgin.
--
___________________________________________________________
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David Kummerow
2005-04-03 22:51:06 UTC
Permalink
For me, one of the more convincing potential positions regarding the
referent of the 'almah is put forward in:

Rice, Gene. "A Neglected Interpretation of the Immanuel Prophecy." ZAW 90
(1978): 220-227.

This is taken up in the popular commentary of Barry Webb and also in his
essay, "Zion in Transformation: A Literary Approach to Isaiah," in _The
Bible in Three Dimensions: Essays in Celebration of Forty Years of Biblical
Studies in the University of Sheffield_ (ed. D.J.A. Clines et al; JSOTSS 87;
Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1990), 82.

To quote Webb (p.82): "Given the situation (Jerusalem beset by foes, 7.1)
and the fact that Isaiah is pointedly told to take his son Shear-jashub ('a
remnant shall return') as he goes to confront the faithless Ahaz (7.2),
there can be little doubt that 7.14 refers metaphorically to the emergance
of a faithful remnant. The young woman who is about to give birth is Zion.
Her son, symbolically called Immanuel, is the small community of believers
who gather around the prophet, his 'disciples' or 'children' (8.16-18). They
are the remnant in the immediate sense anticipated by the name Shear-jashub.
They are the ones who have returned in repentance to the Lord."

Regards,

David Kummerow.
Karl Randolph
2005-04-04 03:19:52 UTC
Permalink
This explanation sounds sort of wierd. So wierd, that that's all I can say on it.

Karl W. Randolph.

----- Original Message -----
Post by David Kummerow
For me, one of the more convincing potential positions regarding
Rice, Gene. "A Neglected Interpretation of the Immanuel Prophecy."
ZAW 90 (1978): 220-227.
This is taken up in the popular commentary of Barry Webb and also
in his essay, "Zion in Transformation: A Literary Approach to
Isaiah," in _The Bible in Three Dimensions: Essays in Celebration
of Forty Years of Biblical Studies in the University of Sheffield_
(ed. D.J.A. Clines et al; JSOTSS 87; Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1990),
82.
To quote Webb (p.82): "Given the situation (Jerusalem beset by
foes, 7.1) and the fact that Isaiah is pointedly told to take his
son Shear-jashub ('a remnant shall return') as he goes to confront
the faithless Ahaz (7.2), there can be little doubt that 7.14
refers metaphorically to the emergance of a faithful remnant. The
young woman who is about to give birth is Zion. Her son,
symbolically called Immanuel, is the small community of believers
who gather around the prophet, his 'disciples' or 'children'
(8.16-18). They are the remnant in the immediate sense anticipated
by the name Shear-jashub. They are the ones who have returned in
repentance to the Lord."
Regards,
David Kummerow.
--
___________________________________________________________
Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com
http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm
David Kummerow
2005-04-05 00:33:39 UTC
Permalink
Karl,

I simply provided the quotation so as to provide an indication of the
position that I, personally, favour. It may sound "wierd" straight out of
the blue. However, have a read of the article, commentary, and article.

I find Webb's position convincing as it is an argument built on a study of
formal and thematic textual indicators from the book as a whole. Besides,
Barry Webb is no "wierdo".

David Kummerow.
Post by Karl Randolph
This explanation sounds sort of wierd. So wierd, that that's all I can say
on it.
Karl W. Randolph.
----- Original Message -----
Post by David Kummerow
For me, one of the more convincing potential positions regarding
Rice, Gene. "A Neglected Interpretation of the Immanuel Prophecy."
ZAW 90 (1978): 220-227.
This is taken up in the popular commentary of Barry Webb and also
in his essay, "Zion in Transformation: A Literary Approach to
Isaiah," in _The Bible in Three Dimensions: Essays in Celebration
of Forty Years of Biblical Studies in the University of Sheffield_
(ed. D.J.A. Clines et al; JSOTSS 87; Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1990),
82.
To quote Webb (p.82): "Given the situation (Jerusalem beset by
foes, 7.1) and the fact that Isaiah is pointedly told to take his
son Shear-jashub ('a remnant shall return') as he goes to confront
the faithless Ahaz (7.2), there can be little doubt that 7.14
refers metaphorically to the emergance of a faithful remnant. The
young woman who is about to give birth is Zion. Her son,
symbolically called Immanuel, is the small community of believers
who gather around the prophet, his 'disciples' or 'children'
(8.16-18). They are the remnant in the immediate sense anticipated
by the name Shear-jashub. They are the ones who have returned in
repentance to the Lord."
Regards,
David Kummerow.
George Athas
2005-04-05 10:59:14 UTC
Permalink
Just to back up David's comments, I believe Barry Webb's idea is based on the thematic developments within the literary structure of Isaiah as a piece of literature. While there may be other historical considerations which are worth noting, Barry's study is literary and theological. I believe he is picking up the subtleties of the literary currents within Isaiah.

BTW - I can vouch that Barry Webb is certainly no wierdo. He happens to be a personal friend, and is a consummate gentleman with a brilliant mind for literary and theological analysis. I have the deepest respect and admiration for him.

Best Regards,

GEORGE ATHAS
(Sydney, Australia)


----- Original Message -----
From: David Kummerow
To: b-***@lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 10:33 AM
Subject: [b-hebrew] Re: Almah vs. Bethulah in Isaiah 7




Karl,

I simply provided the quotation so as to provide an indication of the
position that I, personally, favour. It may sound "wierd" straight out of
the blue. However, have a read of the article, commentary, and article.

I find Webb's position convincing as it is an argument built on a study of
formal and thematic textual indicators from the book as a whole. Besides,
Barry Webb is no "wierdo".

David Kummerow.
Post by Karl Randolph
This explanation sounds sort of wierd. So wierd, that that's all I can say
on it.
Karl W. Randolph.
----- Original Message -----
Post by David Kummerow
For me, one of the more convincing potential positions regarding
Rice, Gene. "A Neglected Interpretation of the Immanuel Prophecy."
ZAW 90 (1978): 220-227.
This is taken up in the popular commentary of Barry Webb and also
in his essay, "Zion in Transformation: A Literary Approach to
Isaiah," in _The Bible in Three Dimensions: Essays in Celebration
of Forty Years of Biblical Studies in the University of Sheffield_
(ed. D.J.A. Clines et al; JSOTSS 87; Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1990),
82.
To quote Webb (p.82): "Given the situation (Jerusalem beset by
foes, 7.1) and the fact that Isaiah is pointedly told to take his
son Shear-jashub ('a remnant shall return') as he goes to confront
the faithless Ahaz (7.2), there can be little doubt that 7.14
refers metaphorically to the emergance of a faithful remnant. The
young woman who is about to give birth is Zion. Her son,
symbolically called Immanuel, is the small community of believers
who gather around the prophet, his 'disciples' or 'children'
(8.16-18). They are the remnant in the immediate sense anticipated
by the name Shear-jashub. They are the ones who have returned in
repentance to the Lord."
Regards,
David Kummerow.
_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-***@lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew

Karl Randolph
2005-04-05 05:44:23 UTC
Permalink
David:

I did not intend to imply that the author is a wierdo, it is just that the logic doesn't make sense to me. My comment is merely that I found the theory sounding wierd.

Karl W. Randolph.

----- Original Message -----
Post by David Kummerow
Karl,
I simply provided the quotation so as to provide an indication of
the position that I, personally, favour. It may sound "wierd"
straight out of the blue. However, have a read of the article,
commentary, and article.
I find Webb's position convincing as it is an argument built on a
study of formal and thematic textual indicators from the book as a
whole. Besides, Barry Webb is no "wierdo".
David Kummerow.
--
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